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Ep.13: How Representative is Your Brand, Really? A Conversation with Gradient

Sonia: Welcome to inclusion and marketing the show. That’s all about giving you the skills and insights. You need to win the attention, adoration and loyalty of more consumers, especially those with differences that are often ignored by brands. I’m your host, Sonia Thompson, a marketer, and a person with a lot of differences. Let’s get to it. Have you ever seen that meme where there’s a dog who is sleeping peacefully and enjoying his sleep?

His head is pressed up against the wall. I think he’s like sleeping on his back and his feet are up. He is having that good, good, good sleep in the process of having that. Good, good, good sleep. He doesn’t look quite as peaceful and as cute and as warm and fuzzy as a puppy might look whenever they’re just kind of sleeping peacefully with their heads, like above their paws and all that kind of stuff. So, anyway, there’s this meme that says how I think I look when I’m sleeping and it shows this image of this super cute puppy, like the super cute puppy, just sleeping peacefully, gracefully, and without a care in the world. And then it shows the image of this more adult dog who is sleeping good, but it doesn’t like quite look so good. That is just a representation of what we often see or how we often feel about ourselves. We often think that we’re doing one thing that we’re performing in a certain way that we look a certain way, but it isn’t always actually what we look like actually, how we’re performing actually, what we’re looking like. Sometimes it is, but in many cases it isn’t. That’s why I brought on today’s guests. I was intrigued when I saw information about them. They have an AI platform, a software platform that helps them take what brands think they’re doing from a representation standpoint and their visual imagery across their brand. And this is their photography, their videos, everything, every sort of visual imagery that they have. And it’s this software, this program, this application that helps them actually show them what their representation looks like. It was so cool. Whenever I learned about the concept and I knew I wanted to talk with them more about it. So today’s guest is we’re going to talk about not only their, their product and their offering from a representation standpoint, but we’re going to talk about representation and inclusive marketing in general. I just love the fact that more and more as we’re getting into more entrenched in the world of inclusive marketing, because remember inclusive marketing is the future of marketing. We’re now getting more tools to help us assess how we’re doing, how we’re performing in that front. So anyway, without further ado, I’m going to turn it over to this discussion with my guests. It’s a very good one. They’re not only experts in their field, but they spend a lot of time working with brands, helping them to be more inclusive. So they’ve got a lot of wonderful, wonderful insights offer. All right, here they go. Hello, Federico and Raquel. Thank you so much for joining me today. How are you

Federico: Doing amazing. Thank you for having us here. We’re doing great. Last night was fabulous with all the ads that we’ve seen during Super bowl. It was so exciting. We were all texting each other on the CMO club, my whole, what do you think of that? What are you? It was absolutely amazing

Raquel: Doing well. Thank you Sonia, for having us. It’s a great day to choose right. The day after the world’s biggest showcase of ads. So we’re, we’re thrilled to be here. Thank you

Sonia: Sure. For sure. Definitely a lot of interesting things happening from a marketing standpoint. So before we dive into the topic of the day, cause I know you all have some very interesting and fascinating things to cover. Can you just, each of you tell the people who are you and what do you do?

Raquel: Sure. I’m<inaudible> and I’m the founder and COO of equity project for all, which is a brand strategy firm that really brings together the best of brand storytelling and the best of financial performance to deliver results. And so we intersect around social impact, brand growth, as well as talent and acquisition and talent excellence. If you like. And I also serve on the board of California USA, that’s the holding company for gradient, which is exciting science back to artificial intelligence technology to help us get D and I on the right track.

Federico: And I am a Federico. So I love the fact that I worked to an extent on the dark side of things, which is more on the venture capital, more on the funding of forcefully excellence ideas when it comes to D artificial intelligence machine learning technology that can be used for anything that has to do with diversity and inclusion and saving the planet. To an extent I’m also part of an advisor of the global compact, the United Nations. And so for me, there is no, there is no victory without, without everybody people, the world animals winning altogether. And so it’s, it’s, it’s just inconceivable to create something that everybody can not benefit from. So

Sonia: I love that. I love that. And I love that you all, each of you have a very interesting lens from what we normally hear in the world of inclusion. And I think that’s a good thing because it helps to expand the way we think about it and figuring out how we can provide solutions that will help us continue in our journey to build an inclusive brand. So before we dig in too much, I wanna just kind of understand from your point of view, what is the state of representation and marketing from a diversity and inclusion standpoint?

Raquel: I will say that in a state that has so much more work ahead of us, you know, if we just look at the numbers, sheer numbers, that 40% of the US population for example is diverse, it’s multicultural. And then we look at the numbers of dollars that are attached to these multicultural audiences, and it’s a Wolf hole 5.2%. So if you just look at that gap, you can see that there are inroads that have been made. And I think in the last 24 months, we’ve seen great focus on understanding the importance of understanding cultures within a multicultural America, the black lives matter movement, the work that’s being done around Hispanic marketing, Asian-American marketing, it’s all moving in the right direction, but not fast enough. So one of the biggest aspects is really understanding what is the friction points in the system that are not allowing us to invest to the level we need to invest? And how do we give voice to those who are champions in this space so that they can act as role models for other brands. And we’ve seen some incredible work from a number of brands in the CPG and beverage industry, for example, with Unilever Pepsi. And Kellogg’s all doing work, you know, really trying to address the issues, but there’s a lot more work to be done. And that’s where for the week when I’d come in and, you know, really helped shepherd these brands to that growth.

Sonia: Very cool. Now are you mentioned a couple of brands who you mentioned are doing a good job and who have started to really make some inroads. Are there any industries that you’ve seen in particular that really have been shining over the past couple of years in particular, or conversely, those who have struggled when it comes to representation and inclusion, particularly in marketing?

Raquel: Yeah, sure. The ones that have been shining are really those who have had purpose very much embedded in the culture of the company. So if I look at two role models, Procter & Gamble, where I had an opportunity to work early in my career, you know, where brands have an opportunity to touch people’s lives because they are a product and mass product and have such power in their messaging, whether it’s in store in social or in television to relay a message, they really taken that responsibility. And as mark Pritchard, who’s the chief growth officer grant officer at Proctor & Gamble says it’s about, you know, driving growth and driving good. And the work that they’ve done with the look, the talk and the choice, these three excellent examples that I’d encourage your listeners to seek out and understand has been incredibly relevant to really understanding what drives multicultural audiences in particular black consumers, you know, how they can get impacted by some of societal’s, you know, full pause if you like or errors in terms of how they’re treated and in person as well as on, on the air. So, you know, I would say P & G is kind of the role model when it comes to the great word, Unilever as well with campaign for real beauty, with Dove. And then I think the other brands really from other categories, including automotive and tech have had missteps. I’m not going to name them, but they have been missed up. And really, because there was a false understanding that just having people of color in an ad is sufficient when it is not. It really is about the context, the message and what is the story that you’re imparting that really is authentic. And when that connection isn’t there, you get stories that are disjointed disingenuous and really, you know, create consumer backlash because consumers are not afraid to speak up as we’ve seen and, you know, voice their concerns.

Federico: So now I think that there is also a common denominator with some of the names that Raquel is talking about. Let’s take Pepsi as an example, those that are doing well particularly well are the ones that are not defensive to even have a conversation when it comes to, what could you possibly do a differently there is though those are what struggling are the ones that say normally the, the approach is, yeah, we got this, we got this kind of approach yet. We’re doing now, we’re doing it already. We’re doing it already. It’s the extremely defensive behaviors. And those that look at innovating how to tackle the issue, how to approach the issue, I think are doing a, doing a very good job. So there is a people management, there is a change management that has to happen before all these micro-changes become coherent what’s on, but that’s more on the management side of things.

Sonia: Absolutely. I think that it goes very much to the importance of building an inclusive brand and in building an inclusive culture. It’s not just a matter of we’re gonna change and put some photography or some people of color in our advertisements and, you know, done like we’ve, we’ve got it covered and we’re inclusive. It really requires a fundamental change in how you operate. And that starts with the way you think. And sometimes that even starts with the people that you have on your team. So it’s not just, you know, something that you can just flip a switch on at the end.

Federico: It starts with the way you listen. I think to any important behavior that companies need to realize is that the need to listen and observe a lot more before they can act. And that is something that historically they have not been very good at because they simply want to slap a label on things simply because in Davos, the CEOs of their companies were just chatting with their friends. And so the auditing part of things, the change management side of things, the listening side of things, it’s fundamentally important. It needs to be both as well, qualitative and quantitative, but I don’t want to get too much into detail from that perspective,

Sonia: Right? No, I, I agree. I think that the customer intimacy aspect is critical and a big part of being able to have that intimacy comes through listening along those lines. Last year, I did a study on the state of representation in marketing, and I asked consumers what it is that they wanted brands to know as it related to representation. And one of the things that came out, which if brands are doing a good job of listening, they’ll start to hear this pop percolating more and more is that consumers talks about how yes, they have seen an increase in brands, showcasing more black people and more people of color. But the harmful thing is they’re only showcasing light-skinned black people and light-skinned people of color or people who are racially ambiguous. And from their perspective, this is harmful. Particularly if you are someone who is darker skinned and don’t see yourself represented, what are your thoughts on how brands can get in tune to these nuances of cultural intelligence that allow them to do representation and make sure that they’re all people, right, no matter what complexion they have feel seen.

Raquel: Yeah. I think that that’s, that’s a really important question. And I think the first step is what’s the story you’re trying to tell has to be answered very clearly in terms of the communication? What is the story you’re trying to tell and what are the key human values that are universal as part of that story that everybody on this planet who is a human will relate to and understanding what those universal values are, and then saying, what is an authentic way of telling that story? What are the characters that would be seen as believable and memorable to tell that story? And then from that you really need to say, based on that character, you know, who should represent that character based on openness to the world we live in, which is a multicultural America and saying, you know, this needs to be a person from, you know, African-American background or black background, and they have to have these kind of characteristics to tell the story and the, and who they are as part of that. And I think it’s really, really important that brands look to first the story and then the right characters and then the right casting. One important thing I want to raise for everyone is that, you know, when it comes to casting and I, I, you know, worked on shoots where we’ve had to cast different characters to suit certain personalities, et cetera, the sag after rules actually say that you only describe your character. You know, you describe who the character is. This is an Asian American male, etcetera. You never describe your past. That’s the character. And everybody has to be able to audition and be considered for that character. Of course, you know, they may say that preference is given to people of diverse backgrounds as part of that, but you really need to keep the aperture open when it comes to casting and seeing who can play that character best. And, you know, those are things that are very, very important because as you say, if you don’t see it, I’m not in it. I don’t feel my voice is heard. I don’t feel I’m represented. And so it’s very important as creative directors, as brand leaders to have that openness, that anybody can play that character and choose the right person to tell the story authentically. So, and brands who’ve done it right. Have really excelled.

Sonia: Is it okay for brands to set specific goals or target? So if they’re not able to, they are able to say, all right, we need an Asian person to play this character. Or, you know, they’re kind of working through it. Are they able to say, all right, from a representation standpoint, we want, for instance, the actors, our talent, or the people who are going to be in our photography, we want to have a distribution that is sort of representative of the population of where our brand is. Is it okay for whatever the goals are? What are the number for the brand? Are they able to put numbers associated with it? Should they be doing that?

Raquel: Well, when it comes to the, what I said earlier, the story, they have to write the story from the perspective of being inclusive, they have to describe the characters, fictional characters in that story, very specific lands, say, this is a story where meaning someone who can portray, you know, a black woman off, you know, 24 years old, who can portray an Asian American male of this age or of this, you know, sexual orientation. They can describe the characters, but when they are auditioning, they have to be open to anybody who wants to play that role. And I think they, you know, really need to think through, rather than thinking numbers, think quality of story. Am I telling a story that will resonate? Am I telling the story that the rest of the audience will feel is true and authentic? And from that, you know, you, you, you will be able to get to those characters that you’ve created. So I encourage my clients to think more about the quality of the story, and who’ll tell it authentically. And maybe an actually that person should be a person of this background, but you decide that, you know, through your character writing, and then you keep your casting open

Federico: Quality of the story sometimes. Okay. I’m sure you will agree with it. It it’s, it is directly proportionate to the people’s understanding of what it means to be authentic. There are some brands that want to be everything for everybody, just because they think that that makes more money, which is a technical mistake. It’s not just a behavioral bias. It’s literally a technical mistake. I think that everyone, it doesn’t matter. Color, body type, the religious beliefs, everybody appreciate when someone is authentic and is truly going after their vision, their dream, it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t have to represent me, but it represents my dream. It represents my vision. And so the story becomes even more powerful when the C-suite within an organization truly embraces the authenticity of their brand and what they stand for.

Sonia: Right. Authenticity is key, right? So if the story isn’t authentic, it doesn’t really matter which characters you put into place because people are going to call foul right away.

Federico: Yeah. That happens immediately. And we have a lot of, we have a lot of cases in perhaps more business to business types or types of companies in financial services that perhaps that have tried to be everything for everybody. And you can tell that they’re using cameos more than, more than, more than truly embracing what fees stand for. And so I love how Raquel put it, the quality of the story is the authentic representation of the vision of the world. You would love to see manifested.

Sonia: Got it. So before we move on to technology, I just want to have, I want to probe more on this particular topic. So if it’s the quality of the story, how do we get more brands to start thinking of building stories around people who have traditionally been underrepresented and underserved? So we have a storyline that kind of puts them first and elevate them. And then of course we let the casting fall out, but that we’re really thinking about how can we elevate people who’ve traditionally or storylines or characters that have traditionally not been seen in mainstream media.

Raquel: You know, the first thing is, and I will say very clearly, I’ll be the first to say it, follow the money, you know, and I know that there’s a moral imperative for us to do the right thing in terms of representation, but business is business. And I think the smart businesses have said, where’s the growth opportunity? And the money tells us very clearly there’s huge upside untapped upside, for example, and the black consumer opportunity, huge upside in Hispanic consumer opportunity, which is going to be sort of the new majority. So is there, you know, whatever they made aside in terms of representation, if he want to grow their business, this is an imperative. This is an imperative for you to see growth because these are the population. So the numbers are there. And, and I think that should be a huge imperative. And of course, in addition to that, if you have in your DNA of purpose filled core, like the proctors and Unilever do, and you know, like we’ve seen also with, you know, some other great big brands, including Patagonia, Toms, you know, all these brands that have had DNA of purpose at the core, then you can say it with authenticity, P & G can talk about the black experience, because if it’s 360 partnership across DNI with queen Latifah’s queen collective of the work they’re doing on the ground, they can speak to it with consistency. And no one can say you’re being insincere. The same thing with Unilever Dove launched just in the last month in stores, Dove hair love, which is a beautiful solution for shampoos for young girls with textured hair. Who’ve never been seen before? And it was created through a story that Matthew Cherry wrote an animated story that won an award, an Academy award about a dad, a beautiful story. Dad, you know, trying to manage this young girl’s hair while the mom was, you know, recovering in hospital. And it was just so pointed. And so that story is a human story. They represented, he represented Matthew Cherry by having black tasks, if you like the animated cast and that sort of spurred on this line of shampoo now, typically for that community. And so what you do is you create first an urgent financial urgency of call to action. This is where the money is, and this is where the heart is. This is what people are asking for. This is what people are relating to because this is where we know consumers. 71% of them expect to see some diversity and inclusion images in the ad. So those are the things that, you know, we have to really keep keeping in mind, as we think about creating this urgency inside our corporations.

Federico: Which is part of the educating process that we have to do. You know, the global compact for the United Nations with Raquel its effort on a daily basis is to help the C suite truly realize that that’s where growth is going to come from. And isn’t it wonderful to be together, not the same, that’s the whole point. So I see it as an amazing opportunity. And I see a lot of change. The, we, we got to this change is perhaps more dramatic than we would have hoped for, but I am. I am looking at the future right now and is a lot brighter from this perspective. I can tell that people are listening a lot more. They’re willing to put money where their mouth is and to Raquel’s point, they’re authentic about it. They, they lean in, you can see their body posture when we are in meetings. It’s not dismissive at all. And we get to the C suite a lot faster because of this, this new tool, you know, authenticity.

Sonia: Very good. Well, I’m glad that the future looks bright and thinking about the future more and more brands will start to embrace technology as a way to help them manage how they’re doing on a representation and inclusion standpoint. Can you talk a little bit about how brands can use technology and tools that are existing now and are up and coming to help them track how they’re doing from a representation standpoint?

Federico: Very much so. Very much so. So this is, which is actually how recognize collaboration started about a year and a half ago, two years ago, we were lucky enough to, to be involved in the Institute for real growth selection of the, their vision of the top 100 CMOs in the world. And the invested into us working together on a weekly basis, all hundreds of us in different classes, to to, to, to, to, to, you know, to work on diversity and inclusion, to work on authenticity and emission. Everything was very much related to around diversity and inclusion and the more Raquel and I were working together. And she has so much expertise from a DNI perspective. And I come, I come more from the artificial intelligence and machine learning side of things. We were talking to this a hundred CMOs, and we’re saying, hang on a minute. I think that there is an actual, low hanging fruit. Everybody, everybody can start from. And the low hanging fruit is the most common form of communication, which is images, images. If you think about it, or even if we don’t speak the same language, somehow we can rely on the visual side of things, Conway. And so it is the shortest bridge to get to know one another and to tell each other, Hey, I love you. And so on that basis, I remembered the day in which we were in class. And there were a bunch of other CMOs that we were talking to and arrest my hand and say, well, actually there is a way to make images structured, put them into a database, make sure that I can scrape them online and offline and get access to a database. And I can tell you exactly what kind of color representation, body type representation, gender representation you have and age as well. I can visually tell you within a space of a few minutes, as long as they can create the model. And everybody looked at me like what? There was this pause whereby yeah, guys, why didn’t you know about it? And this is the point, the education element point. Most people in marketing historically, haven’t been exposed to what you can actually do with artificial intelligence and machine learning up until probably about a year and a half to two years ago. And so it’s a lot cheaper to do it. You don’t need an army of people. You don’t need an army of consultants to be able to, to, to accomplish it and is a great way to start to start at least doing the first, most important thing that we set together with all the authenticity is the listening and the observation part. How have I performed over the last three years? Let me go into my digital asset management and let me make a maturity model perhaps of how I have represented the various communities that I normally would sell my products to. And that’s how, and that’s how the conversation started. And I mean, some people were shocked completely, but what they found out about themselves.

Sonia: I can imagine, because I think that most people probably feel that they are performing from a DNI standpoint or representation standpoint, particularly higher than they are. And so whenever they actually have the data in front of them, it’s like, ooh, oh yeah,

Federico: Jaw-dropping, it is dry dropper. You can see that, especially normally the first reaction is please, please take the screen off. Don’t show this numbers anymore. Ever. Don’t tell anybody because more often than not, the nobody wants to throw anybody under the bus. You know what I mean? Right. Especially if your other colleagues, you are, you might be the global, central CFOs, but then you have product people and products here most that are reporting to you. Don’t want to throw anybody under the bus. And so the beauty of doing something that is kind of anonymized and is an analysis, it’s the first time you do really stick in the sand, it’s very safe, isn’t it? You can, it could be a conversation started in an organization that makes the change and the acceleration a lot faster because now you have bed data to back it up. And so when that CMO tells you, no, we’re actually doing yay. We got this, we got this. No, you don’t have that. And let me show you, why

Sonia: Is this? I imagine that it’s eye opening for a lot of people and can help them have conversations that need to be, have that lead to positive change in their campaigns. Is this something that’s available? Is it, was this something that was just proprietary for you all in this group? Or is this available now for people to tap in to and try it for their own brands?

Federico: Yeah, It is available for people to try intended to, to, to, to try it in their own brands. I’ve Raquel and I, his approach is very much about changing the world first and then, and then show everybody how they can do it themselves for what we could do it for you, it’s entirely up to you. And so normally what we would do, we would sit down with the brands that want to start this journey. We would empower them with how to do it. The people they need, how much it would cost, how they should go about doing it. What are the variables that they need, yada, yada, yada. But yes, it is available to, to, to, to everybody and, and gradient calcify and graded happens to be one of the technologies in the same way, Raquel with equity, which we’re trying to speak about technology as little as possible. And we can have, because it’s not always, it’s not always a, it’s not the core of the conversation.

Sonia: Understood. They need to start with what it is in terms of their strategy, their culture, what is it they’re trying to do? And then technology, it can be a tool to help them achieve their goals.

Federico: And it’s a very geeky B of a oddly and fondly cruel tool because the moment they say, we got this, it took me about seven minutes to do this analysis. And these are the results. So yeah, you don’t have this. It’s actually fun to an extent,

Sonia: As long as people go in, knowing that the idea is for us to continue to make progress and continue to improve. And the data looking at the data facing the data helps us to develop a plan of action in that will help us to close any gaps that we feel that we have

Federico: Very much, so very much so, which is where Raquel I’ve seen her work. And it’s absolutely impressive how, and she laughs about it because I don’t ever refer to you as the frameworks person. She has a framework for any Sony you want to make off in the morning. She’s got a framework for you.

Raquel: Well, it’s only as good. It’s only as good as what it does. Right? But thank you, Federico. I always love your encouragement there, but you know, one of the things that we always think about as well as we thought about this challenge was, you know, there’s these inputs into the system that sometime become really, really bewilderingly large. Right? And so when w what we were talking about in terms of that image and image understanding is that you just keep building images and stories, and there isn’t necessarily a strategy to say, what’s the right next image. And what is your bank of historical images? And what are they saying? And in many ways, it’s like that first step, like I call it kind of like the first step on the ground floor, understand where you are today, you know, and really get a good grip on it because it’s become bigger than Ben Hur, or there’s like more people using images across your organization, on social media, in store promotions, on television, on, you know, digital outdoor ads. I mean, there’s all, they’re all over the place, but there’s not really been an orchestrator of saying, how many are you using of each type? What’s the context where ground background. And so what’s been exciting, and it is absolutely an enabler to Federico’s point. It’s, you know, the technology enables the core and the core is solving problems for our consumers, right? So it’s like we do that. And this technology helps us do that. It has really given us visibility and ability to sort of say, okay, this is interesting. This is how the percentages break up. How does it stack up against our story? Objective, if the story objective called for that, then you get an, a plus, even though it may not be whatever percentages you have preconceived, but if it’s not, it’s not satisfying your story objective and not growing your business, then you need to re-look at it. So everything in terms of visual quantity, classification, percentages always done from the perspective of context, context of story, performance and context of business performance. So those are important things to keep in mind.

Sonia: Absolutely. All right. We can go on and on about this, but I know we have to wrap up, can you let us know where people are interested in exploring this technology? How should they be reaching out to you? How can they find you? How can they get more information?

Federico: Absolutely, of course, Raquel and I, we can be found on LinkedIn, of course, but if you go into a gradient AI, that is the easiest way to establish a first contact with us on quantify as well as the, is the mothership of the technology behind it. And we will be publishing more ways to connect directly with us in the future. But gradient for now is a great starting point to get it done. It will expand to more and different types of technologies as we are bringing them on board in the future, for example, and this is a little teaser is not just going to be about images, but he’s going to be about words as well with a specific methodology that this company that we have found is just brilliant. I can’t wait to use it. And, but, you know, I don’t want to put the car in front of the horses. Let’s give you for graded AI right now.

Sonia: Okay. I will put all this information in the show notes so people can easily access it. Any parting words of wisdom for business leaders who are working hard, trying to build an inclusive brand that serves a broader group of customers.

Raquel: I, I would say, you know, look within yourself. First of where you stand on these issues, where do you stand on these challenges? There’s a wonderful test online called the implicit association test. And I’ll send you the information Sonya, you can add that that actually is a very personal confidential test that actually taps into your unconscious bias. And I think the first step is as leaders recognize what are our blind spots and those blind spots can influence how you motivate and empower your teams and the direction you give. So I would say spend time getting to know yourself, your blind spots, where is your core in terms of your purpose of what you’re trying to achieve? How are you matching that to your brand and your brand’s purpose? And don’t be afraid to fall because we all have fallen down and have had to pick ourselves up again. It’s not an easy straight line journey. We’re going to make mistakes, but if you do a genuinely people lift you up and what I’ve seen that happen time again.

Sonia: Thank you all so much. It’s been so much fun and insightful tatting with you. And I really appreciate it.

Federico & Rebeca: Thanks for having us.

Sonia: Such a rich and wonderful conversation. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. And there are a lot of key takeaways from the things that we covered, but overall, what I want to leave you with is really just the idea that measurement is important. There are a lot of brands who have been starting to make good progress with regards to representation and marketing in particular. And maybe you’re one of them, but it’s hard to know how you’re doing and how you’re doing over time. And even the impact that you’re having on the people you’re serving, if you’re not measuring it. So start to think about the ways in which you can measure how well you’re doing in this regard. And even in other aspects of representation and marketing, go ahead and grab my inclusive marketing starter kit. You can find slash starter kit. And if you liked this episode, I would so appreciate it. If you would share it with a friend and even rate and review it in your podcast app of choice, it’ll help get the word out. So others could get going, delivering inclusive experiences until next time, remember everyone deserves to have a place where they belong. Let’s use our individual and collective power to make sure more people feel like they do. Somebody is waiting on you. Thanks for listening.